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	<title>Comments on: Women are not crazy</title>
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	<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/</link>
	<description>rebel without a pause</description>
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		<title>By: Starting somewhere &#187; philosophical geekess</title>
		<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/comment-page-1/#comment-231355</link>
		<dc:creator>Starting somewhere &#187; philosophical geekess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathancarter.co.za/?p=906#comment-231355</guid>
		<description>[...] So does Matt. So does Lefty. So does Matthew. So does Jonathan. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So does Matt. So does Lefty. So does Matthew. So does Jonathan. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: yogurtu</title>
		<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/comment-page-1/#comment-231281</link>
		<dc:creator>yogurtu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathancarter.co.za/?p=906#comment-231281</guid>
		<description>@ A.J. venter:
I read the copy of your post in facebook, and the humorous tone of it is absolutely obvious. besides, the responses there are so... normal!!
they were precisely what I would expect from normal, non-geek people. 
@ Jonathan Carter: given the bile you display towards AJ I would say that either a)you are trying to manipulate a geekish community (ubuntu) or b) you honestly believe in what you said and in that case you really need to go out more often and meet non-geek people. 
either way, given that AJ makes no reference towards free software, or programming or anything of the sort in that post, and that he is not pretending to be a model of anything, or making any judgments, I find you reaction pretty disturbing. Specially considering that you do belong in a community that preaches humanity towards others. 
I mean, I really like the sense of sharing that I see in the ubuntu community, but seeing this kind of behavior and the way some members in your community treat women (stallman, Matt Aimonetti, etc) I would rather stay away. 
P.S. I&#039;m posting this also in AJ&#039;s blog</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ A.J. venter:<br />
I read the copy of your post in facebook, and the humorous tone of it is absolutely obvious. besides, the responses there are so&#8230; normal!!<br />
they were precisely what I would expect from normal, non-geek people.<br />
@ Jonathan Carter: given the bile you display towards AJ I would say that either a)you are trying to manipulate a geekish community (ubuntu) or b) you honestly believe in what you said and in that case you really need to go out more often and meet non-geek people.<br />
either way, given that AJ makes no reference towards free software, or programming or anything of the sort in that post, and that he is not pretending to be a model of anything, or making any judgments, I find you reaction pretty disturbing. Specially considering that you do belong in a community that preaches humanity towards others.<br />
I mean, I really like the sense of sharing that I see in the ubuntu community, but seeing this kind of behavior and the way some members in your community treat women (stallman, Matt Aimonetti, etc) I would rather stay away.<br />
P.S. I&#8217;m posting this also in AJ&#8217;s blog</p>
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		<title>By: Sick</title>
		<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/comment-page-1/#comment-231276</link>
		<dc:creator>Sick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathancarter.co.za/?p=906#comment-231276</guid>
		<description>Sick of these posts. It&#039;s not like it was 10 years ago with a predominant sexism. Today is a lot different than it used to be, there&#039;s a lot less sexism.
uh, is it a new meme that everyone needs to talk about this? and especially taking the same examples?...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sick of these posts. It&#8217;s not like it was 10 years ago with a predominant sexism. Today is a lot different than it used to be, there&#8217;s a lot less sexism.<br />
uh, is it a new meme that everyone needs to talk about this? and especially taking the same examples?&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sense Hofstede</title>
		<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/comment-page-1/#comment-231272</link>
		<dc:creator>Sense Hofstede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathancarter.co.za/?p=906#comment-231272</guid>
		<description>Could then someone tell me what the sexist part is of this joke? Where is said that women need everything explained by men?

Don&#039;t get me wrong, I&#039;m most certainly not against emancipation, but this whole affair looks like someone wanted to see a sexist joke in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could then someone tell me what the sexist part is of this joke? Where is said that women need everything explained by men?</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I&#8217;m most certainly not against emancipation, but this whole affair looks like someone wanted to see a sexist joke in it.</p>
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		<title>By: confluence</title>
		<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/comment-page-1/#comment-231269</link>
		<dc:creator>confluence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathancarter.co.za/?p=906#comment-231269</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I can totally see how a sexual innuendo-laden joke about experienced male text editor users deflowering inexperienced female text editor users would encourage women to become involved in FOSS.  It&#039;s so welcoming!

No, it really isn&#039;t &quot;discriminating&quot; to believe that people should not be sexist because women find it unpleasant.  Believing that doesn&#039;t mean you believe women are too weak to &quot;handle&quot; sexism; it means you believe people shouldn&#039;t, as a general rule, behave like assholes towards one another.

The connotations of the joke would not be the same if the genders were flipped, because sexism in our society is not symmetrical.   Apparently in most previous incarnations of this joke Stallman didn&#039;t mention gender at all; I don&#039;t know why he opted to put it in this time.

But seriously, I&#039;m not that pissed off with Stallman himself.  I think he made a joke which was supposed to be about something unrelated to gender, and it came out sounding a lot more creepy than he had intended because he included gender.  I would be happy if he simply acknowledged that; I don&#039;t expect an epic sackcloth-and-ashes apology.  What disturbs me a lot more is the hysterical and misogynistic anti-feminist backlash from his fanboys all over the internet.

A large segment of the population seems to parse &quot;you said something which came across as sexist&quot; as &quot;you are a baby-eater&quot;, and thus can&#039;t seem to respond to this kind of criticism with anything other than vitriol and outrage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I can totally see how a sexual innuendo-laden joke about experienced male text editor users deflowering inexperienced female text editor users would encourage women to become involved in FOSS.  It&#8217;s so welcoming!</p>
<p>No, it really isn&#8217;t &#8220;discriminating&#8221; to believe that people should not be sexist because women find it unpleasant.  Believing that doesn&#8217;t mean you believe women are too weak to &#8220;handle&#8221; sexism; it means you believe people shouldn&#8217;t, as a general rule, behave like assholes towards one another.</p>
<p>The connotations of the joke would not be the same if the genders were flipped, because sexism in our society is not symmetrical.   Apparently in most previous incarnations of this joke Stallman didn&#8217;t mention gender at all; I don&#8217;t know why he opted to put it in this time.</p>
<p>But seriously, I&#8217;m not that pissed off with Stallman himself.  I think he made a joke which was supposed to be about something unrelated to gender, and it came out sounding a lot more creepy than he had intended because he included gender.  I would be happy if he simply acknowledged that; I don&#8217;t expect an epic sackcloth-and-ashes apology.  What disturbs me a lot more is the hysterical and misogynistic anti-feminist backlash from his fanboys all over the internet.</p>
<p>A large segment of the population seems to parse &#8220;you said something which came across as sexist&#8221; as &#8220;you are a baby-eater&#8221;, and thus can&#8217;t seem to respond to this kind of criticism with anything other than vitriol and outrage.</p>
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		<title>By: Sense Hofstede</title>
		<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/comment-page-1/#comment-231267</link>
		<dc:creator>Sense Hofstede</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathancarter.co.za/?p=906#comment-231267</guid>
		<description>Then again, wouldn&#039;t it be discriminating to think of women as weak and feeble creatures that can&#039;t handle such a joke as Stallman made?

I don&#039;t see the problem with the remarks made by Stallman. I wouldn&#039;t be offended if you&#039;d replace female with male.
Isn&#039;t it much more an encouragement to get more women involved in FOSS?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then again, wouldn&#8217;t it be discriminating to think of women as weak and feeble creatures that can&#8217;t handle such a joke as Stallman made?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see the problem with the remarks made by Stallman. I wouldn&#8217;t be offended if you&#8217;d replace female with male.<br />
Isn&#8217;t it much more an encouragement to get more women involved in FOSS?</p>
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		<title>By: A.J. Venter</title>
		<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/comment-page-1/#comment-231265</link>
		<dc:creator>A.J. Venter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathancarter.co.za/?p=906#comment-231265</guid>
		<description>Confluence.
I am tired of defending a post I deleted since nobody got that it was parody. Look at my other writings, see the kind of society I advocate and actively promote, the ideals I really believe in then tell me you believe that this ten year track-record is consistent with the view you are forming based on one post ? 
I&#039;d say that to negate all that because of one post and reject my statement that it was a parody is as bad an act of stereotype judging as you are accusing me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Confluence.<br />
I am tired of defending a post I deleted since nobody got that it was parody. Look at my other writings, see the kind of society I advocate and actively promote, the ideals I really believe in then tell me you believe that this ten year track-record is consistent with the view you are forming based on one post ?<br />
I&#8217;d say that to negate all that because of one post and reject my statement that it was a parody is as bad an act of stereotype judging as you are accusing me.</p>
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		<title>By: confluence</title>
		<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/comment-page-1/#comment-231264</link>
		<dc:creator>confluence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathancarter.co.za/?p=906#comment-231264</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your post, Jonathan.

Regarding the original post and AJ&#039;s responses here:

* I don&#039;t buy your retroactive &quot;it&#039;s satire!&quot; defence.  Sorry.

* Distributing tired cliches about women, regardless of how much you personally claim to disbelieve in them (afterwards), helps to perpetuate an environment which is hostile and belittling to women.  If you had entitled the post &quot;My girlfriend is crazy&quot;, I would not have cared.  The problem is, once again, the lazy and insulting suggestion that something one person does is indicative of the mindset of half the human population -- a trope which is apparently still *hilarious* to some people.

* You don&#039;t get the magical stamp of non-sexist approval just because some women liked what you wrote / didn&#039;t think it was sexist.

* Your personal blog is no longer just your personal blog when it is aggregated on a community blog.  It reflects badly on the community when you post sexist jokes on it.  If they don&#039;t do anything about it, they are implicitly condoning your behaviour.  I appreciate that Jonathan responded critically to your post in the same forum in which it appeared, and he was perfectly entitled to do so *because* both your blogs are aggregated on CLUG Park and thus implicitly associated with each other.  Perhaps you should only have part of your blog aggregated, or start another blog which is really just personal.

* Criticism =/= censorship, and a request that you don&#039;t post things that are an embarrassment to the Linux community in a forum which represents the Linux community is not the same as a demand for the government to arrest you for what you said.  Nobody can stop you from reposting your post in a variety of places.  This is not a freedom of speech issue.

* Accusing someone of not honestly representing their opinion on an issue, and getting &quot;offended on behalf of other people&quot;, is obnoxious.  Do you think only women can be offended by sexism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your post, Jonathan.</p>
<p>Regarding the original post and AJ&#8217;s responses here:</p>
<p>* I don&#8217;t buy your retroactive &#8220;it&#8217;s satire!&#8221; defence.  Sorry.</p>
<p>* Distributing tired cliches about women, regardless of how much you personally claim to disbelieve in them (afterwards), helps to perpetuate an environment which is hostile and belittling to women.  If you had entitled the post &#8220;My girlfriend is crazy&#8221;, I would not have cared.  The problem is, once again, the lazy and insulting suggestion that something one person does is indicative of the mindset of half the human population &#8212; a trope which is apparently still *hilarious* to some people.</p>
<p>* You don&#8217;t get the magical stamp of non-sexist approval just because some women liked what you wrote / didn&#8217;t think it was sexist.</p>
<p>* Your personal blog is no longer just your personal blog when it is aggregated on a community blog.  It reflects badly on the community when you post sexist jokes on it.  If they don&#8217;t do anything about it, they are implicitly condoning your behaviour.  I appreciate that Jonathan responded critically to your post in the same forum in which it appeared, and he was perfectly entitled to do so *because* both your blogs are aggregated on CLUG Park and thus implicitly associated with each other.  Perhaps you should only have part of your blog aggregated, or start another blog which is really just personal.</p>
<p>* Criticism =/= censorship, and a request that you don&#8217;t post things that are an embarrassment to the Linux community in a forum which represents the Linux community is not the same as a demand for the government to arrest you for what you said.  Nobody can stop you from reposting your post in a variety of places.  This is not a freedom of speech issue.</p>
<p>* Accusing someone of not honestly representing their opinion on an issue, and getting &#8220;offended on behalf of other people&#8221;, is obnoxious.  Do you think only women can be offended by sexism?</p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/comment-page-1/#comment-231262</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 06:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathancarter.co.za/?p=906#comment-231262</guid>
		<description>Hear, hear - nicely put.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hear, hear &#8211; nicely put.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://jonathancarter.org/2009/07/20/women-are-not-crazy/comment-page-1/#comment-231261</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathancarter.co.za/?p=906#comment-231261</guid>
		<description>Oddly, I&#039;m with AJ on this one. Personally, I think he could have been a bit more over-the-top, but I don&#039;t see anything sexist in the piece. Overall, it&#039;s pretty funny, and spot on in describing some of the things that many women do that drive men up the wall. Secondly, even if the piece were offensively sexist, I don&#039;t see a problem with a FLOSS member (or any other community member) posting that on their personal blog. If it was however posted on an official blog of [insert major project here], then that would probably not be very cool, and would upset a *lot* of people.

In regards to male virgins, it would not have had the same effect as the butt of the joke would have applied to the majority of the audience including the speaker himself. (I kid!) As a male *emacs* virgin, I would have passed off the idea as the rantings of a lunatic, which seems to be what many in the FLOSS community thinks of RMS anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oddly, I&#8217;m with AJ on this one. Personally, I think he could have been a bit more over-the-top, but I don&#8217;t see anything sexist in the piece. Overall, it&#8217;s pretty funny, and spot on in describing some of the things that many women do that drive men up the wall. Secondly, even if the piece were offensively sexist, I don&#8217;t see a problem with a FLOSS member (or any other community member) posting that on their personal blog. If it was however posted on an official blog of [insert major project here], then that would probably not be very cool, and would upset a *lot* of people.</p>
<p>In regards to male virgins, it would not have had the same effect as the butt of the joke would have applied to the majority of the audience including the speaker himself. (I kid!) As a male *emacs* virgin, I would have passed off the idea as the rantings of a lunatic, which seems to be what many in the FLOSS community thinks of RMS anyway.</p>
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